I meant to post this sooner but have been swamped at work.
Thanks for everyone's comments on the last post. RecessRampage got so fired up about the hand that he even posted a detailed analysis on his blog.
I specifically posted the hand for thoughts on the best play on the river, but got a lot of comments about my bet sizes preflop, flop, and turn.
A breakdown my street
PREFLOP
Full Tilt Poker Game $2/$4 - No Limit Hold'em
Seat 1: danishdude ($162.40)
Seat 2: IRunSoGood ($1,030.50) - roughly 250 BB deep effective stacks
Seat 3: eb226 ($400)
Seat 4: ConstantColorUp ($853.10)
Seat 5: cmitch ($1,347.40)
Seat 6: SkyzZik ($783)
cmitch posts the small blind of $2
SkyzZik posts the big blind of $4
5 seconds left to act
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cmitch [Ac Ah] - Obviously nice to get, especially since I had been 3 betting from the blinds quite a bit (mainly due to actually getting good hands in the blinds)
danishdude folds
IRunSoGood raises to $14 - Standard opening range
ConstantColorUp folds
cmitch raises to $46 -I probably should have raised more here given that we are so deep.
SkyzZik folds
IRunSoGood calls $32
I posted the hand in the cardrunner forums and Brian Townsend posted a very good response.
His thoughts preflop:
"I would reraise to at least 60 preflop with these deep stacks and with you being out of position."
FLOP
*** FLOP *** [5c 4c Jc]
cmitch bets $65
IRunSoGood calls $65
I got some comments about betting bigger on the flop but I had my reasons for the bet size.
I wouldn't normally bet this small with this strong of a hand on a flop like that, but the villain had been re-raising my continuation bets quite a bit. I felt like the small bet might induce him to re-raise me and allow me to put in a 3rd bet.
The smooth call could almost mean anything here. KcKx, QcQx, AJs, flopped flush, set, etc, etc. I really think that he would raise a set here though to see where he stands.
TURN
*** TURN *** [5c 4c Jc] [9h] - Pot Size ($226)
cmitch bets $125
IRunSoGood calls $125
This is where I butchered the hand. I should have bet something along the lines of $180-$200 given our stack sizes. I don't agree at all with check/calling here as Alan (RR) suggested. It seems weak in this spot and a good player that had a strong enough hand to continue this far is going to be betting almost every time.
I got a few other comments about the turn, but most of them were pretty much along the lines of "You should have bet more on the turn."
Brian Townsend's had an interesting thought on the turn bet:
"and as you mentioned the turn bet should be larger. This is also a nice spot to check raise the turn. If you had bet closer to pot on the flop the stack sizes would have worked better for a turn check raise. "
RIVER
*** RIVER *** [5c 4c Jc 9h] [Js]
cmitch bets $225
IRunSoGood raises to $794.50, and is all in - Insta-shove
cmitch has 15 seconds left to act
cmitch has requested TIME - I'm obviously folding but hated to do it.
Uncalled bet of $569.50 returned to IRunSoGood
IRunSoGood mucks
IRunSoGood wins the pot ($923)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $926 | Rake $3
Board: [5c 4c Jc 9h Js]
Seat 1: danishdude didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: IRunSoGood collected ($923), mucked
Seat 3: eb226 is sitting out
Seat 4: ConstantColorUp (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: cmitch (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 6: SkyzZik (big blind) folded before the Flop
Even though I played the hand poorly on the flop and turn, I feel like I made the right decision on the river.
There were several people that said I should check/call the river, but I don't like that line as I said in a comment on Alan's post:
Alan's comment - "I check and decide depending on what the villain does. If the villain bets half the pot, I would be compelled to call. Could it be a value bet? Sure. But again, it's really hard to put him on a J here and if that's what he has, I'll pay half the pot."
My response - "Wouldn't it be better to just fire out a half the pot size bet if you are planning to call a half pot size bet? This way you are deciding how much to put in on the river. He can't raise with a worse hand, so if he raises you are pretty much beat. He probably isn't checking a better hand behind either. "
I think most people were thinking along the same lines as me between the comments, the CR forum and a 2+2 post. I had comments of betting anywhere between $175-$325 on the river and folding to a shove.
Based on the insta-shove, I think that the guy probably flopped a set or possibly flopped a flush.
I appreciate everyone's comments. It really helped me analyze the hand and hopefully I can play it differently when I am the same spot again.
Posts
Very interesting and I now agree with throwing the bet out on the river. The part I failed to understand initially was that I'm not controlling the pot size by check/calling the river. You said it best. If you're gonna call half the pot bet sized anyways, why not bet it since it would give a better indication of where you stand.
Great post(s). This is why I like your blog. Very thought provoking.
Alan aka RecessRampage
1:21 PM
Oh and sign up for the HUC6 already. Don't tell me you're scared. :)
Alan aka RecessRampage
1:23 PM
Funny that your read with the instashove is that he flopped a set or a flush. I would say he flopped top pair with a decent kicker -- say QJ, KJ or the dreaded JackAce -- and his river push was based on his hand being the nuts other than a flush, and based on your weakness on basically all streets IMO suggesting no flush for you. He probably correctly put you on the Ace of clubs and that your weak bets looked like you had a little something or even just the two overs to go along with your flush draw. So when the draw did not fill on the river, and he tripped up as it is with the Jack in his hand, he I think very reasonably concluded that he had you smoked. I mean, that river card even put him ahead of an overpair like you actually had.
Sucks you can't find out about these things. But in the end surely it is the analysis that counts, not the actual results. And either way I certainly agree with your fold there, when the top card pairs after a guy has called you preflop, on the flop and on the turn, and all you got is one pair and a busted draw, you fold to the allin for that much more than the current pot.
I say he had KJs, no clubs.
Nice post as always.
Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo
5:50 PM
Anonymous
11:18 PM
thanks for the insightful commentary!
nice view into cash game thought process!
hope your well!
Rubbarose
2:03 PM
From my own fishy, low limit perspective, here's how the hand looks:
I put him om 99.
He calls (instead of 3-betting) your pre-flop raise because he's only semi-strong. Even if your reraise was weakish (I have no opinion on that), he has to pay respect.
Flop:
He's strong enough to call a continuation bet. If you're drawing to a flush it's a coinflip, and if you get funky on the Turn he can always fold.
Turn:
Brings him a set, but he can still loose to a made flush. If you have AcKx he's in good shape, so he has no need to rock the boat. He's probably hoping you have AJ, but I don't know how you'd normally play a hand like this. He would.
The River J is a perfect card for him, and the push is a value bet: It's unlikely that you have a set, but if you do, a call could happen. A call from the nut flush is also likely.
/j.
joxum
11:23 AM
Good fold, it stings I know but had to be done.
This hand played out exactly like a flopped set on a monotone board. There is a chance he had something goofy like AJs or TJs, but I think here you're facing a flopped set (most likely pre55to), and thus a fullhouse on the river.
The reason I think this is because of the calls on the flop and turn. Your flop and turn bets a few people said were a bit small, but if you held the nut flush they look exactly right for enticing action/extracting value. If I had flopped a set on a monotone flop, I would be very hesitant to raise with so much money behind and the very real possibility of being re-raised allin by a made flush. He may have put you on the overpair instead of the made flush, but if so he still wouldn't want to raise knowing you could easily shove with either, and he'd be under great pressure to choose whether he was a big favourite or substantial dog.
So, he called both bets because he knew if the board paired he had a shot at your entire stack - in other words because he thought he had the right implied odds. If a non-club hit on the river, I think he would have easily called anything smaller than a pot bet. He may even have been worried that you had JJ, but when the river arrived and put another J on the board, he decided quads was unlikely and so gladly shoved your blocking bet with 5s full.
This hand was awful for you because it was monotone in your suit, you were out of position, and you weren't the one with a flopped set! You played it right in my eyes, but were behind from the flop.
Thanks again for another quality post.
SubZero
7:09 AM
My wife says to fold aces pre-flop, for what it's worth...
CC
12:33 AM