I think this is a great example of why it is so hard to play out of position against someone that floats a ton. I had a really tough decision (in my mind) on what to do on the flop and what that would mean for later streets. I would be interested to see what others would do? The villain was flat calling a ton pf and re-raising a lot of flops and turns.
Full Tilt Poker, $2/$4 NL , 6 Max
BTN: $883.80
SB: $469.30 - posts $2
BB: $282.20 - posts $4
Hero (UTG): $667.20
Villain: $1,554.30 - Had been floating a lot. I also had a note that said, "Floats a ton in pos"
CO: $510
Pre-Flop:
Hero (UTG) - QsQd
Hero raises to $14
Villain calls $14
all folds
Flop: Pot ($34) - 5d 8h 3h
Hero bets $24
Villain raises to $80
Hero ????
1. What is your play here? (Remember the Villain seems to float a lot.) If you say raise, how much? What do you do if he shoves?
2. If you flat call or raise the flop (and he flat calls), what do you do on the turn if it is a blank? if it is a heart? if it is a non-heart 4 or 9?
I am out of town on business all day tomorrow, so I'll post the results tomorrow night or Wed morning.
Posts
At this point you need to decide to commit to the hand or not. He could have umpteen drawing hands which arent that far behind you. SO folding with only $38 in the pot isnt out of the question.
I'd never call here, would I?
I am tempted to RR to $225 and go broke. He pprobably has a set ...
Fuel55
4:21 PM
This is so ugly.
I think you want to settle this hand right here on the flop. You really don't want to see the turn because there aren't many cards that are good for you. You're screwed by pretty much anything: hearts, 9, 4, A, K, 2, 6, 7.
Fold or raise. Folding isn't too bad because you don't lose much.
But I would more likely push it hard with a large raise to $350 or more. Then I would go all-in on the turn no matter what card fell.
If you're up against a set or a coinflip, so be it. I think you're ahead more often than not, so I would go for it.
Gnome
4:25 PM
I always thought "floating" was calling post flop same as "peeling". Preflop should be the same, I guess. I don't know why I thought different. I just always considered that person a "cold caller".
Anyway, I do think you need to raise. I think the amount depends on what he has done before this when people have pushed back a little; but I would say somewhere between $210-$230. If he is drawing, I want to charge him; but I feel I could get away if he pushed after this.. but may not want to.
These are always tough situations and I look forward to seeing what other more knowledgeable people have to say.
WillWonka
4:26 PM
Personally, I hate reraising. You reraise here, you're committing yourself. If villain has total air, you get him to fold. However, if he has a set, you're drawing to two outs. If he has a nut flush draw, he's got 12 outs twice (assuming no AK based on preflop action). If the villain has like 6h7h, he's drawing to 15 outs twice. you see where I'm going. Having said that, recently, I've been a lot more aggro with QQ also. I remember gnome's post about if you shove QQ with all unders every time, you are actually marginally profitable. If he's doing this a lot, he could also think you're just cbetting with two face. Even though I'm not crazy about it, I think I'm gonna reraise here.
The only problem with reraise and fold here is that now, you're putting so much more money in. I'm not sure that it's so bad to peel one more card. I know there are bazillion cards that you hate to see but it might make your decision easy for you. I'm not too worried about a K here. So, the cards I don't want to see are hearts, A, 4, or 9. Any other cards and if he hits, he'll probably get me good. But let's say the turn brings a blank. I would probably check raise a significant amount, based on what he bets. If a scare card falls, you can check fold. I'm still not a big fan of getting all the money in on the flop.
Alan aka RecessRampage
5:23 PM
you know I was thinking $225 straight, call shove/shove all turns, but i think alan has the best idea here. it's counterintuitive but it makes a whole lot of sense, especially with stack depth.
tonymark01
3:37 AM
1. I would flat call here. I don't necessarily want to play a big pot but I have a lot of equity in the hand, so I want to see another card and re-evaluate on the turn.
2. If the turn blanks, I would vary my play between a turn shove and a hefty C/R. If the turn completes a flush or straight, I would either check/fold or try a blocking bet to get to showdown cheaply.
Shrike
12:01 PM
Villain hopefully thinks about me as a thinking player knowing that I know a RR would commit me to the pot.
As this really would, and there are a lot of scare cards... I'd go for a sizeable RR to tell them he won't be able to bluff me out later. So I'd put in little less than half of my remaining stack.
Csaba Kétszeri
1:10 PM
Raising here is pretty gross. You basically commit yourself to 150bbs with QQ post flop unimproved and let your opponent play perfect poker against you. You probably even fold out JJ-99 with this reraise.
Being oop sucks too as the opp can peel 2 cards if he wants to check behind the turn with his draws.
I probably call and look to CRAI on a non-heart turn. If I had the Qh I my CRAI on any turn tho.
lucko
2:00 PM
At this depth, I would fold before I would reraise as well. I don't have a major problem folding here.
lucko
2:01 PM
I'm personally am getting my answer right now and I'm raising somewhere around 220 to 240, its 1/3 of my stack and I'm going with my read that he is a frequent 3-better, and this is an excellent flop for him to 3-bet, with any 2 broadway cards. I wonder if it really matters, because if you cold call, you have 94 in, the pot is roughly 190, wtf are you going to do on the turn, fire 2/3 pot if a heart or other scare card doesn't come, then you would have the same amount of money in anyway. I guess calling then firing a 2/3 pot bet gives him the odds to fold a draw with only 1 card to come. OOP suxs
Eric a.k.a. Bone Daddy
2:10 PM
I thought that floating the flop meant calling your opponent's c-bet (with nothing) then taking it away on the turn.
This situation is not quite the same: do we know if these floats usually represent weak hands/bluffs so this different line is more likely to represent strength?
This is the first thing I look at in these situations, flop aggression and how the villain plays his draws. Many players seem to raise their flush draws these days rather than call in position, feeling they might have enough equity to stand a reraise, the implied odds of the draw are not fantastic and that they can often take it down straight away.
For this reason I hate folding the flop unless you have a decent read: it seems very very weak. Raising immediately cuts down your options, I'd like to see a turn card and get more information from him. As it stands if you simply flat call I don't think you are narrowing down your range in his mind too much - some of our 'scare cards' could also be scary for him.
JJ
Anonymous
3:09 AM