Wow again!!! Thanks for all the great comments. All the different answers that I got really show how difficult it can be to play unimproved over pairs oop.
The hand from yesterday:
Full Tilt Poker No Limit Hold'em - 4 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
BB: $238.00
Hero (CO): $602.40
BTN: $1415.75
SB: $423.90
Pre Flop: Hero is CO with J
J
Hero raises to $14, BTN calls $14, 2 folds
Flop: ($34.00) 9
T
4 (2 players)
Hero bets $24, BTN raises to $72,
I'll try to address all the comments.
1. KGBlovesOreos asked "What is your table image? Reason I ask is, if you have a very tight image, you won't often be raised here unless you're beat. If your image is on the other end of the spectrum, your opponent is probably raising you here with a much wider range of hands. He may even be doing this with nothing, so you should be comfortable getting your stack in OTF if it gets to that point."
My table image was probably somewhere in the middle maybe a little to the looser end since we were 4 handed. I did think that the villain was capable of bluff raising the flop with atc, but would also raise any straight draw, flush draw, sets, 2 pair, A10, and potentially a hand like J10s, K10s, etc.
2. Pokerpeaker advocated folding and then asked a good question, " If you're holding A-A, do we still fold? And if not why not, since we're probably not worried about Q-Q or above here?"
I think that I might be more apt to make a big re-raise with AA, KK on the flop b/c you have better equity against flush draws that could include 1 or 2 over cards against JJ.
Below is a list of what everyone said they would do:
KGBlovesOreos - Raise to $200 and fold to a shove; shove any blank turn if he flat calls
Shrike - Raise to $200 and call a shove; shove any blank turn if he flat calls
Alan - Not sure what to do but leans towards just calling and firing out on a non-heart turn that isn't a K,Q,6
Fuel - Fold x 5
WillWonka - Call; C/R a non-scare card turn
Pokerpeaker - Fold with the reason that "When I have no idea what to do, I fold"
Gnome - Sounds like not sure but leaning towards raising; didn't comment on turn or what you do if he shoves after you raise (I'm assuming he would advocated calling an all-in re-raise after you raise b/c of the odds you will be getting and the potential that he has a draw.)
So the response fall out as follows:
Fold - 2
Raise and fold to a shove - 1
Raise (and probably have to call a shove at this point) - 2 (get all-in on non scare card turn)
Call and shove or c/r a non-scare card turn - 1
Call and lead turn - 1
I played this almost the exact same way that I played the QQ hand the other day (and got lucky):
Hero calls $48
Turn: ($178.00) 7
(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $136, Hero raises to $516.40 all in, BTN calls $380.40
River: ($1210.80) 4
Final Pot: $1210.80
Hero shows Jc Jd (two pair, Jacks and Fours)
BTN shows 9d Td (two pair, Tens and Nines)
Hero wins $1208.80
(Rake: $2.00)
I opted for the flat call and cr ai on a non-scare card turn and got very very lucky. My reasoning was that if I re-raised on the flop then I pretty much have to call a shove because of all the draws. My plan was to c/r any non scare card turn and potentially (not likely) c/r a heart if the heart seemed to scare him.
Thanks again for all the great comments.
Posts
It's not the decisions, it's the results... ;-)
Maybe raising does give us more info as he most likely would have shoved there and given the stack sizes, we probalby could have found a fold.
Having said that, I like the way you played it.. lol.
WillWonka
9:20 AM
Willwonka,
I kinda disagree. This is exactly why those advocating a reraise on the flop can go broke more often than not. That flop is not where you want to commit your stack with JJ... sure, it's an overpair but what hands are you realistically beating (and don't say flush draw because if the guy has overs, it's virtually a flip). I'm talking, what hands are you a clear favorite? Not many. But most people fear the turn so they advocate raising on the flop. Reraising on the flop is bad also because it commits you. You can find a fold button after you reraise and the guy shoves? You're getting huge pot odds and the guy would shove with a monster draw.
That's why I want to peel off one more card. I don't mind the check raise all in but I'm not too crazy about it. At that point, you're telling yourself that he has a draw... in other words, you're discounting the possiblity that he may already have a hand that beats you. Personally, I probably would have bet out the turn card and possibly find the fold when the guy shoves. But then again, I'm a nit so what do I know.
Alan aka RecessRampage
11:00 AM
For the record, my vote was to call and C/R which is what Mitch did. Again results.. not decisions.. lol
If my math is right (which might not be the case) If we raise to $200 and he pushes we have basically a $400 decision into basically a $825 pot so I'm saying that this is not huge pot odds? You are getting 2-1 so maybe it would be hard to "find" a fold. I'm just saying that MAYBE I could find a fold there.
BTW, I love these dicussions because I really do learn from them.
WillWonka
11:14 AM
Fuel rules - Hero is a lucksack ...
Fuel55
11:24 AM
I like your line after thinking about this hand a bit more. Your edge even against drawing hands is too small to just shove it all in. Waiting until the turn is the way to go, according to PokerStove:
Board: 9h Ts 4h
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.797% 41.45% 00.35% 7796 66.00 { JcJd }
Hand 1: 58.203% 57.85% 00.35% 10882 66.00 { 44, AhJh, AhTh, KhQh, KhJh, KhTh, QJs, QhTh, JhTh, Jh8h, T9s, Th8h, 8h7h, 8h6h, 7h6h }
I wonder if you should donkbet the turn when a blank falls. If your opponent had checked behind the turn with a drawing hand, that would have been a disaster.
Good hand example. I think I was wrong about raising or folding.
Gnome
3:42 AM
But on the other hand, your equity only improves about 5 percentage points on the turn:
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
836 games 0.005 secs 167,200 games/sec
Board: 9h Ts 4h 7s
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.129% 46.41% 00.72% 388 6.00 { JcJd }
Hand 1: 52.871% 52.15% 00.72% 436 6.00 { 44, AhJh, AhTh, KhQh, KhJh, KhTh, QJs, QhTh, JhTh, Jh8h, T9s, Th8h, 8h7h, 8h6h, 7h6h }
It's a tough spot either way.
Gnome
3:49 AM